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Fantasy » alt.fan.pratchett » Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251478] So, 09 April 2006 11:03
Mart van de Wege  
"Arthur Hagen" <art [at] broomstick.com> writes:

> 8'FED <dragon [at] netyp.com.au> wrote:
>> Arthur Hagen wrote:
>>
>>> It depends on the programme. If it's a soap, yes. If it's an
>>> old-fashioned detective story, you should indeed try to follow the
>>> plot (or switch channels).
>> And most television is somewhere in between those extremes.
>> On the "mindless" end of the spectrum, the following is an episode
>> guide for at least one American soap opera. The one I'm thinking of
>> starts with P.
>
> Pyrefly? PSI? Pest Wing? Prattlestar Galactica?
>
>> Episode Plot Summary
>> ------- ------------
>> 1000001 With everything now on the brink of disaster, nothing
>> happens.
> ...
>> 1000016 With everything now on the brink of disaster, nothing
>> happens.
>

Pabylon 5?

Which, although a decent show, gets my vote as 'most over-hyped, most
over-rated show ever'.

Then again, I'm a huge fan of ST:DS9, so what right do I have to
complain?

Mart

--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251650 ] Mo, 10 April 2006 12:00
Suzi  
In article <87bqvbazo5.fsf [at] angua.ankh-morpork.lan>, Mart van de Wege
mvdwege.usenet [at] wanadoo.nl wibbled...

[Snip]
> Pabylon 5?
>
> Which, although a decent show, gets my vote as 'most over-hyped, most
> over-rated show ever'.

How many episodes did you watch? Did you watch them in the right order?

> Then again, I'm a huge fan of ST:DS9, so what right do I have to
> complain?

I'm a fan of ST:TNG, ST:V, ST:DS9 and B5 :-)

Suzi
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251691 ] Mo, 10 April 2006 19:57
Brian Wakeling  
In a speech called MPG.1ea43a85a79ee8098997f [at] 192.168.0.3,
Suzi uttered thus:
> In article <87bqvbazo5.fsf [at] angua.ankh-morpork.lan>, Mart van de Wege
> mvdwege.usenet [at] wanadoo.nl wibbled...
>
> [Snip]
> > Pabylon 5?
> >
> > Which, although a decent show, gets my vote as 'most over-hyped,
> > most over-rated show ever'.
>
> How many episodes did you watch? Did you watch them in the right
> order?
>
> > Then again, I'm a huge fan of ST:DS9, so what right do I have to
> > complain?
>
> I'm a fan of ST:TNG, ST:V,

You /liked/ the fifth movie? *Gasp*!

> ST:DS9 and B5 :-)
>
> Suzi



--
http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sabremeister/
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
Cycling home 12 miles every night after theatre gives you a lot of
time for introspection.
I don't want introspection, I want a bloody car!
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251707 ] Mo, 10 April 2006 22:42
raymond larsson  
In article <49vkl9Fpj0h2U1 [at] individual.net>, Brian Wakeling says...

> Suzi uttered thus:
> > I'm a fan of ST:TNG, ST:V,
>
> You /liked/ the fifth movie? *Gasp*!

and here I was afraid it stood for Star Trek: Voyager.

--
rgl
"Bother!" Pooh said. "I was born with the curse of a golden voice"
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251715 ] Mo, 10 April 2006 23:59
Brian Wakeling  
In a speech called MPG.1ea47af0d109e210989775 [at] news.sasktel.net,
raymond larsson uttered thus:
> In article <49vkl9Fpj0h2U1 [at] individual.net>, Brian Wakeling says...
>
> > Suzi uttered thus:
> > > I'm a fan of ST:TNG, ST:V,
> >
> > You /liked/ the fifth movie? *Gasp*!
>
> and here I was afraid it stood for Star Trek: Voyager.

Actually, the series' of ST:VOY that I saw (the first three and last
two), I quite liked. The later two (chronologically) ST TV franchises
are severely underrated by many sceptics.

--
http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sabremeister/
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
"Cupid has a depressing tendency to use me for target practice"
- Me, sometime in 2002.
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251726 ] Di, 11 April 2006 00:26
graham  
On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 11:03:38 +0200, Mart van de Wege
<mvdwege.usenet [at] wanadoo.nl> wrote:

>Pabylon 5?
>
>Which, although a decent show, gets my vote as 'most over-hyped, most
>over-rated show ever'.

An award that, personally, I think should go to 24.

"Hi, this is Jack Bauer, I'm not in at the moment, but if you leave me
your name and number I'll get back to you tomorrow..."

>Then again, I'm a huge fan of ST:DS9, so what right do I have to
>complain?

DS9 tried to do what Babylon 5 did.

It failed.

Cheers,
Graham.
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251730 ] Di, 11 April 2006 00:28
Suzi  
In article <4a02qvFqi9lrU1 [at] individual.net>, Brian Wakeling
bpwakeling [at] hotmail.com wibbled...

> In a speech called MPG.1ea47af0d109e210989775 [at] news.sasktel.net,
> raymond larsson uttered thus:
> > In article <49vkl9Fpj0h2U1 [at] individual.net>, Brian Wakeling says...
> >
> > > Suzi uttered thus:
> > > > I'm a fan of ST:TNG, ST:V,
> > >
> > > You /liked/ the fifth movie? *Gasp*!

I preferred it to the 4th movie, certainly!

> > and here I was afraid it stood for Star Trek: Voyager.

/me too - that's how I've always abbreviated it!

> Actually, the series' of ST:VOY that I saw (the first three and last
> two), I quite liked. The later two (chronologically) ST TV franchises
> are severely underrated by many sceptics.

The only thing that I disliked about ST:DS9 was that it was an obvious
attempt to try and counter B5... having said that I did like, and watch,
both.

Suzi
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251744 ] Di, 11 April 2006 00:45
Brian Wakeling  
In a speech called MPG.1ea4ec849628bcee989980 [at] 192.168.0.3,
Suzi uttered thus:
> In article <4a02qvFqi9lrU1 [at] individual.net>, Brian Wakeling
> bpwakeling [at] hotmail.com wibbled...
>
> > In a speech called MPG.1ea47af0d109e210989775 [at] news.sasktel.net,
> > raymond larsson uttered thus:
> > > In article <49vkl9Fpj0h2U1 [at] individual.net>, Brian Wakeling
> > > says...
> > >
> > > > Suzi uttered thus:
> > > > > I'm a fan of ST:TNG, ST:V,
> > > >
> > > > You /liked/ the fifth movie? *Gasp*!
>
> I preferred it to the 4th movie, certainly!
>
> > > and here I was afraid it stood for Star Trek: Voyager.
>
> /me too - that's how I've always abbreviated it!
>
> > Actually, the series' of ST:VOY that I saw (the first three and
> > last two), I quite liked. The later two (chronologically) ST TV
> > franchises are severely underrated by many sceptics.
>
> The only thing that I disliked about ST:DS9 was that it was an
> obvious attempt to try and counter B5... having said that I did
> like, and watch, both.
>
> Suzi

The B5 idea was originally pitched to the ST team, but they turned it
down. I don't know who brought what out next, and whether the other
was copycat or tit-for-tat, or what, but it was.

--
http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sabremeister/
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
"Give the man a biscuit! He knows his literature!"
- Raymond Forge in "Sea Dog" (a NaNoWriMo by Brian Wakeling)
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251746 ] Di, 11 April 2006 00:49
raltbos  
"Brian Wakeling" <bpwakeling [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

> In a speech called MPG.1ea43a85a79ee8098997f [at] 192.168.0.3,
> Suzi uttered thus:
> > In article <87bqvbazo5.fsf [at] angua.ankh-morpork.lan>, Mart van de Wege
> > mvdwege.usenet [at] wanadoo.nl wibbled...
> >
> > > Then again, I'm a huge fan of ST:DS9, so what right do I have to
> > > complain?
> >
> > I'm a fan of ST:TNG, ST:V,
>
> You /liked/ the fifth movie? *Gasp*!

No no, she liked the cross-over of Star Trek and "V".

You know, where 7-of-9 is revealed to be a lizard inside.

Richard
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251763 ] Di, 11 April 2006 01:24
raltbos  
graham <graham [at] DELETETHISaffordable-leather.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 11:03:38 +0200, Mart van de Wege
> <mvdwege.usenet [at] wanadoo.nl> wrote:
>
> >Pabylon 5?
> >
> >Which, although a decent show, gets my vote as 'most over-hyped, most
> >over-rated show ever'.
>
> An award that, personally, I think should go to 24.
>
> "Hi, this is Jack Bauer, I'm not in at the moment, but if you leave me
> your name and number I'll get back to you tomorrow..."

I'd say that that is true for the series after the first 24. The very
idea of doing a second series misses the point, really.

> >Then again, I'm a huge fan of ST:DS9, so what right do I have to
> >complain?
>
> DS9 tried to do what Babylon 5 did.
>
> It failed.

s/It/Both/. HTH; HAND.

Richard
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251764 ] Di, 11 April 2006 01:33
Arthur Hagen  
Suzi <spamtrap [at] lovegoddess.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4a02qvFqi9lrU1 [at] individual.net>, Brian Wakeling
> bpwakeling [at] hotmail.com wibbled...
>
>> In a speech called MPG.1ea47af0d109e210989775 [at] news.sasktel.net,
>> raymond larsson uttered thus:
>>> In article <49vkl9Fpj0h2U1 [at] individual.net>, Brian Wakeling says...
>>>
>>>> Suzi uttered thus:
>>>>> I'm a fan of ST:TNG, ST:V,
>>>>
>>>> You /liked/ the fifth movie? *Gasp*!
>
> I preferred it to the 4th movie, certainly!

Most people would disagree, but I agree wholeheartedly. "Save the whales"
sucked big time, and while "Shat Happens" wasn't all that great, it
certainly, IMHO, was better than that atrocity.

Regards,
--
*Art
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251816 ] Di, 11 April 2006 13:38
Eric Jarvis  
graham graham [at] DELETETHISaffordable-leather.co.uk wrote in
<ffkl321gq37tb638aerhrjip8gsp88bi2g [at] 4ax.com>:
>
> DS9 tried to do what Babylon 5 did.
>
> It failed.
>

Hardly. All that separates DS9 from TNG is that it is Star Trek with an
overall plot arc rather than as an episodic soap opera. B% was much more
ambitious. Both largely succeeded at what they were aiming at. As sitcoms
they both failed.

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251831 ] Di, 11 April 2006 15:13
Arthur Hagen  
Eric Jarvis <web [at] ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Hardly. All that separates DS9 from TNG is that it is Star Trek with
> an overall plot arc rather than as an episodic soap opera.

Which one is which? I'd argue that DS9 is, by far, the most soap opera like
of them, with intrigues, long-lost relatives coming back, and an abundance
of sappy relationship stuff.
IMHO, once you remove the "To explore strange new worlds and civilizations;
to boldly go where no man has gone before", it's not really Star Trek
anymore.

> B% was much more ambitious.

Spilled sugar under your shift key?

Regards,
--
*Art
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #251865 ] Di, 11 April 2006 17:39
steelcat  
In article <e1ga29$t7q$1 [at] tree.broomstick.com>,
"Arthur Hagen" <art [at] broomstick.com> wrote:

>Eric Jarvis <web [at] ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Hardly. All that separates DS9 from TNG is that it is Star Trek with
>> an overall plot arc rather than as an episodic soap opera.
>
>Which one is which? I'd argue that DS9 is, by far, the most soap opera like
>of them, with intrigues, long-lost relatives coming back,

Riker's dad, Riker's transporter-clone, Picard's brother & nephew, Troi's
mum, Worf's bit-o-rough, Worf's mum & dad, Worf's son, Worf's brother,
Worf's babysitter (!), Data's "dad", Data's "brother"...

>and an abundance of sappy relationship stuff.

Picard & Crusher, Picard & Vash, Picard & Troi's mum, Crusher Jr. & and any
teenage females who happened to be about, Riker & Ro, Riker & Troi, Worf &
Troi, Worf & K'Ehleyr, Pulaski & Riker Sr. (urgh!), O'Brien & Keiko...

>IMHO, once you remove the "To explore strange new worlds and civilizations;
>to boldly go where no man has gone before", it's not really Star Trek
>anymore.

Well, that goes for Next Generation as well then.

"To ferry diplomats and relatives of the crew around, to babble
technobafflegab, to moan about having families on board, to boldly be
politically correct and wholesome and do something interesting and
science-fictiony once every half-dozen episodes or so!" [*]

DS9 was interesting and different until they imported that ugly-looking
starship and that wet Klingon.

B5 was good when it concentrated on the aliens. Sheridan's righteous
moralising got on my wick a bit, but not enough to spoil the show for me.

Voyager... I watched a lot of Voyager and I eventually realised it was
because I was waiting for something to happen. When something interesting
*did* happen (Year of Hell) they then went back and undid it all!

Enterprise never really worked for me. The Xindi arc bored me in a way that
B5's 4-year arc never did. Much like Voyager, the only episodes I *really*
enjoyed were the ones set in the Mirror universe, which sadly had no
bearing on the rest of the series. (Mirror-Archer was mean in an
interesting way. Xindi-arc-Archer was just a grumpy git.)

For good, non-soap SF I recommend Firefly, B7 and Farscape.

Now that I list them, I note that the common theme is that the heroes are
all anti-authority and/or criminals. What does that say about me, I wonder?

[*] I like TNG episodes, I really do. It's just when I look at a whole
bunch of them together they smear into blandness. (To blandly go...)

Cat.
--
Jazz-Loving Soul Mate and Tolerable Frog to CCA
This is what I do darlin'... this is what I do.
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #252241 ] Do, 13 April 2006 00:56
graham  
Hi there,

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:24:06 GMT, raltbos [at] xs4all.nl (Richard Bos)
wrote:

>> DS9 tried to do what Babylon 5 did.
>>
>> It failed.
>
>s/It/Both/. HTH; HAND.

The only "failure" in B5 was on the part of the studios who didn't
realise just what they had and forced the 5 year arcs to be shoehorned
into 4 years which really made a mess of things.

DS9 was hamstrung by Roddenberry's "Wouldn't it be nice if everyone
was nice" universe.

Cheers,
Graham.
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #252242 ] Do, 13 April 2006 00:56
graham  
Hi there,

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:38:15 +0100, Eric Jarvis <web [at] ericjarvis.co.uk>
wrote:

>> DS9 tried to do what Babylon 5 did.
>>
>> It failed.
>>
>Hardly. All that separates DS9 from TNG is that it is Star Trek with an
>overall plot arc rather than as an episodic soap opera. B% was much more
>ambitious. Both largely succeeded at what they were aiming at.

B5's reach did, eventually, exceed its grasp, but only because of the
problems of getting guaranteed funding.

DS9 tried to put in a plot arc, but went meandering all over the
place.

Cheers,
Graham.
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #252720 ] Fr, 14 April 2006 23:56
raltbos  
graham <graham [at] DELETETHISaffordable-leather.co.uk> wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:24:06 GMT, raltbos [at] xs4all.nl (Richard Bos)
> wrote:
>
> >> DS9 tried to do what Babylon 5 did.
> >>
> >> It failed.
> >
> >s/It/Both/. HTH; HAND.
>
> The only "failure" in B5 was on the part of the studios who didn't
> realise just what they had and forced the 5 year arcs to be shoehorned
> into 4 years which really made a mess of things.

And the fact that whenever I watched it, it looked like Soap-in-Space
with a story arc forced down ints throat.
And _the_ most annoying commander ever, worse even than Janeway.
Boxleitner should've stuck with Tron.

Richard
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #252725 ] Sa, 15 April 2006 00:02
Orjan Westin  
Richard Bos wrote:
[Babylon 5]
> And _the_ most annoying commander ever, worse even than Janeway.
> Boxleitner should've stuck with Tron.

No, he should've stuck with the Macahans. Of couse, he never had a
chance competing with James Arness in coolness.

Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #258055 ] Mo, 17 April 2006 23:21
graham  
Hi there,

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 21:56:33 GMT, raltbos [at] xs4all.nl (Richard Bos)
wrote:

>> The only "failure" in B5 was on the part of the studios who didn't
>> realise just what they had and forced the 5 year arcs to be shoehorned
>> into 4 years which really made a mess of things.
>
>And the fact that whenever I watched it, it looked like Soap-in-Space
>with a story arc forced down ints throat.

Which sounds like you didn't watch the whole thing and, as such,
missed the subtleties of the Story Arcs.

>And _the_ most annoying commander ever, worse even than Janeway.
>Boxleitner should've stuck with Tron.

A decision that was forced on JMS by the Studio because they didn't
understand that Sinclair was *supposed* to be that way.

"You talk like a Minbari, Commander..."

War Without End was supposed to be one of the final episodes of Season
Five. Instead it got stuck into Season Three where it worked, but not
as the climax of a Story Arc.

Cheers,
Graham.
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #258499 ] Do, 20 April 2006 01:22
raltbos  
graham <graham [at] DELETETHISaffordable-leather.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 21:56:33 GMT, raltbos [at] xs4all.nl (Richard Bos)
> wrote:
>
> >> The only "failure" in B5 was on the part of the studios who didn't
> >> realise just what they had and forced the 5 year arcs to be shoehorned
> >> into 4 years which really made a mess of things.
> >
> >And the fact that whenever I watched it, it looked like Soap-in-Space
> >with a story arc forced down ints throat.
>
> Which sounds like you didn't watch the whole thing and, as such,
> missed the subtleties of the Story Arcs.
>
> >And _the_ most annoying commander ever, worse even than Janeway.
> >Boxleitner should've stuck with Tron.
>
> A decision that was forced on JMS by the Studio because they didn't
> understand that Sinclair was *supposed* to be that way.
>
> "You talk like a Minbari, Commander..."
>
> War Without End was supposed to be one of the final episodes of Season
> Five. Instead it got stuck into Season Three where it worked, but not
> as the climax of a Story Arc.

Misses the point, though. I don't _want_ to spend four years watching a
Space Soap, trying to follow a story arc which is claimed to be great,
when every single episode I've seen just irritates and bores the arse
off me. Nor do I care _which_ of the vast number of people involved
messed up. I watch the end result; I do not directly read the great
literary mind of the sheer genius author.

Richard
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #258664 ] Fr, 21 April 2006 01:14
graham  
Hi there,

On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:22:37 GMT, raltbos [at] xs4all.nl (Richard Bos)
wrote:

>> War Without End was supposed to be one of the final episodes of Season
>> Five. Instead it got stuck into Season Three where it worked, but not
>> as the climax of a Story Arc.
>
>Misses the point, though. I don't _want_ to spend four years watching a
>Space Soap,

Which it wasn't.

A Soap has the main characters getting together, breaking up, going
off with others, getting back together etc etc etc.

There was virtually none of that in B5.

>trying to follow a story arc which is claimed to be great,

So because you can't be bothered to put effort into it, it's the fault
of the series?!

>when every single episode I've seen just irritates and bores the arse
>off me.

So if you don't like it don't *watch* the bloody thing!

But don't slag it off from a position of ignorance, nor because it
isn't what *you* want it to be.

Cheers,
Graham.
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #259129 ] So, 23 April 2006 20:53
raltbos  
graham <graham [at] DELETETHISaffordable-leather.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:22:37 GMT, raltbos [at] xs4all.nl (Richard Bos)
> wrote:
>
> >when every single episode I've seen just irritates and bores the arse
> >off me.
>
> So if you don't like it don't *watch* the bloody thing!
>
> But don't slag it off from a position of ignorance, nor because it
> isn't what *you* want it to be.

When the followers of the One Great Straczynski stop trying to insult
B5's mirror image in the Trekkieverse, that's when I'll stop pointing
out that their emperor is just as naked.

Richard
Re: [I] Tale not cancelled, nor sold [message #260197 ] Do, 27 April 2006 01:49
graham  
Hi there,

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 18:53:50 GMT, raltbos [at] xs4all.nl (Richard Bos)
wrote:

>> >when every single episode I've seen just irritates and bores the arse
>> >off me.
>>
>> So if you don't like it don't *watch* the bloody thing!
>>
>> But don't slag it off from a position of ignorance, nor because it
>> isn't what *you* want it to be.
>
>When the followers of the One Great Straczynski stop trying to insult
>B5's mirror image in the Trekkieverse, that's when I'll stop pointing
>out that their emperor is just as naked.

ROFL!

That is just so wrong on so many levels that I can't even be bothered
to point out the sheer wrongness of it.

Cheers,
Graham.
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